kick_the_reverb
Joined: Feb 26, 2006
Posts: 1315
Escondido, CA
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Posted on Mar 28 2006 10:00 AM
Hi all,
Over the years of listening to surf music, I started trying to analyze why I like certain songs or bands, and in a lot of cases, it had to do with the drumming style.
So here are some my subjective thoughts in regards to surf drums.
The "standard" surf beat:
The way the snare is played is what expresses the power - volume, attack and tone.
I find that the double snare on the 2, can totally change how a song feels. A lot of time, not doubling the snare really ruins a song.
8ths on the ride - that's what expresses the speed. Obvious, maybe, but so many drummers I hear tend to neglect that, and instead emphasize the snare beat, which makes the song sound sluggish no matter how fast it is really played.
Hi-Hat - I risk getting carried away here, but I really dislike it. Yes, it has its place, but when I see a surf drummer using the hi-hat 95% of the time, it just feels wrong to me. Also, most sound engineers tend to mic it, even though it's already the most dominant sounding part of the drum kit.
Fills - these are what gives excitement to the song - I feel that a lot of times there's a shortage in those. I like to hear them at least every 4 measures. Of course doing the same fill over and over every 4 measures will get boring quick, so throwing one after 2 measures, doing a long one, waiting a little more than 4 measures every once in a while could be interesting.
Bass drum - it's nice to hear it in other places besides the 1 and the 3 from time to time.
Rolling toms beats - to me they convey tribal primitive power, and if a band doesn't have those in at least a few songs, things start to get boring for me.
All the above are in reference to the faster high energy songs, and might seem obvious to most people here, but a lot of times I hear cds or see live bands and those elements are missing.
Some example of drumming I like: besides Ted Pilgrim, of course, if you can, listen to "Are you Being Surfed?" by the Apemen. Mike Rosema really did a good job of drumming on that album. Also "Time Bomb" by the Avengers VI (and the MoAM? live version).
A couple of weeks ago I showed BigTikiDude a trailer from the 60's movie "Kiss Me Quick" (available on Something Weird Video) where the drummer was doing a killer job. I don't have the means to upload it, though.
I'll be glad to hear your opinions...
Ran
— The Scimitars
Last edited: Mar 28, 2006 20:51:36
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Brian
Joined: Feb 25, 2006
Posts: 19195
Des Moines, Iowa, USA
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Posted on Mar 28 2006 11:59 AM
This is a great post, Ran. I am interested to see what Ted and TFJ say to this. We need Dane over here too.
I am not a drummer, nor do I play one on TV, but I've listened to a lot of surf, and find myself compelled by the same things as you. I think surf drums are very important to the song.
Yes, my favorite, the rolling toms...very critical to conveying power and monster waves.
I like the fast ride cymbal stuff too, in moderation. The Bambi Molesters drummer uses that a lot and the Treblemakers did too...(again I'm not a drummer so I may be way off here, but I think I noticed that about them). It adds a sense of urgency...likewise backing it off for a verse puts a sense of space into the song; and you especially notice when the drummer starts on the ride again for the next verse.
The opening track of the new Nebulas CD, Retribution, is a good example here, I think. The lead guitar starts out with some low, ominous, slightly tremoloed notes against a military style drum beat. So both lead guitar and drums are working together, setting an initial mood. Then, after the required reverb crash/echo whoosh from Mike, the lead guitar races into some manic double picking and TFJ really puts some excellent fast explosive fills behind it..these really struck out at me on first listen...it really amps up the energy level. I think the lead guitar and drummer have to work together very closely in surf.
Does surf offer more to a drummer than other genres? There isn't any singing to stomp over...?
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WR
Joined: Feb 27, 2006
Posts: 3832
netherlands
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Posted on Mar 28 2006 12:29 PM
spot on Ran, great post, me like talk drums.
yes very important!!!
I tend to disagree on the fills tho, I mean, yes great and some drummers ( the gods you mention ~hey it's not blasphemy, i used a small g there) can do it but more often than not, I see surf drummers play to much fills. just keeping the beat for a while is what can make the song get groovin'. Mel Taylor soprings to mind. it's also ver difficult NOT to play fills for most drummers, both fysically and psychologically ...
and then there's Dusty Watson, who plays with all that with frightning ease...
WR
— Rules to live by #314:
"When in Italy, if the menu says something's grilled, don't assume it is."
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kick_the_reverb
Joined: Feb 26, 2006
Posts: 1315
Escondido, CA
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Posted on Mar 28 2006 01:49 PM
WR
I tend to disagree on the fills tho, I mean, yes great and some drummers ( the gods you mention ~hey it's not blasphemy, i used a small g there) can do it but more often than not, I see surf drummers play to much fills. just keeping the beat for a while is what can make the song get groovin'.
WR
Oh, I agree there is "too much fills". You can easily feel it when it happens - the songs seems to stand in it's place and not go anywhere. This is why I like the "around every 4 measure" guide (of course there could be many exceptions).
Dusty has to be seen live to be appreciated fully, or at least heard on live recordings. 
TFJ is another one of those drummers that I really like (uses the elements I mentioned). The Nebulas albums are mixed with the drums a little low (similar to the vintage recordings) so I didn't want to give it as an example as it might have been a little harder pick up all the little details.
I liked most of the recordings I heard from Dane, eventhough he's a little more in the hi-hat camp.
— The Scimitars
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kick_the_reverb
Joined: Feb 26, 2006
Posts: 1315
Escondido, CA
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Posted on Mar 28 2006 01:55 PM
Brian
Does surf offer more to a drummer than other genres? There isn't any singing to stomp over...?
Sometimes I feel like the surf drummers are required to play the same beat for most of the tunes, but then I remember that "normal" vocal pop-rock-country is so much more limited. The drumming there is painfuly boring at times. So, I think that in the right conditions, surf might offer more to the drummer.
I'd like to hear from drummers on this subject...I never had the pleasure of playing with a "surf drummer", always had to try to convey these points to the drummers I was playing with, none of them with any surf background. It was very painful at times (still is...shhhhh!)
Ran
— The Scimitars
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spskins
Joined: Feb 27, 2006
Posts: 3732
tn
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Posted on Mar 28 2006 02:09 PM
Brian
Does surf offer more to a drummer than other genres? There isn't any singing to stomp over...?
Yes! After slogging through almost every subgenre of rock in my younger days, I have to say that Surf Drums are the most fun drums to play by far.
Ron Wilson (The Surfaris), Mel Taylor (of course, especially Live '65 (Japan) just smokin'), Tim Fitzpatrick (Lively Ones), Earl Palmer, Hal Blaine, Steve Wahrer (Trashmen), , Dennis Wilson, the list goes on...
To me, here's the deal. Surf Beat=one of the greatest single beats of all time. Its purest form must include 8ths on the ride or occasionally hi-hat, four on the floor kick drum, rimshot on the 4. Beginning of "Walk Don't Run". If that doesn't get people moving, then forget it.
I agree there is nothing worse than a surf beat with quarters on the hi hat, but that's just me. Sure would be a lot easier to work half as hard if no one else really cares.
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WR
Joined: Feb 27, 2006
Posts: 3832
netherlands
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Posted on Mar 28 2006 03:00 PM
kickthe_reverb_
Dusty has to be seen live to be appreciated fully, or at least heard on live recordings.
been tehre done that- I ve seen dusty with both dick dale and slacktone, and I'v got the live in prague cd
dusty's drumming is the main reason I kept watching the vids of the elemntary school thing that was posted on theyahoo group a while ago.
kickthe_reverb_
TFJ is another one of those drummers that I really like (uses the elements I mentioned). The Nebulas albums are mixed with the drums a little low (similar to the vintage recordings) .
TFJ also is a true live drummer, he's radiating energy.
ted i've never seen live 
BUT ...incidently I was watchng a documentary on Keith Moon on the ele tonight, and it was mentioned how Keith Moon liked surf music, some producer sying " yeah he really liked surf music and was influenced by it, esp since in surf the drums was always very loud in the mix, and he took that from surf" or sothing along those lines.
I went, WTF!!!???? (but nobody heard, the wife was out and the kids in bed.)
WR
— Rules to live by #314:
"When in Italy, if the menu says something's grilled, don't assume it is."
https://www.facebook.com/The-Malbehavers-286429584796173/
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kick_the_reverb
Joined: Feb 26, 2006
Posts: 1315
Escondido, CA
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Posted on Mar 28 2006 03:50 PM
spskins
Tim Fitzpatrick (Lively Ones)
I've seen Tim a live a few times, and he has a very unique style (for today) - he's holding the stick over his left hand (old style) and playing the hi-hat with that hand. He does have a light enough touch to make the hi-hat sound good.
I mentioned mostly modern day drummers, because I feel that in the old days, the recording engineers might have tamed the energy out of some of recordings. I wasn't there so I don't know...I still like the 1st wave recordings a lot, even if some of them don't sound as intense as my favorite modern recordings.
Ran
— The Scimitars
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spskins
Joined: Feb 27, 2006
Posts: 3732
tn
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Posted on Mar 28 2006 04:33 PM
Keith Moon was my first drumming hero, especially with the early Who. It's true he loved surf music, but I think he was more into Jan and Dean (the Who did Bucket T at Keith's suggestion) and the Beach Boys. Still, with mostly Hal Blaine and Dennis Wilson as their drummers, Keith was onto something good. Before Keith, I believe that Dennis Wilson was the hardest hitting drummer in rock (check out early 60s live video, he may be sloppy sometimes, but it's GREAT<btw, the same could be said for Can't Explain>). I also read that Ventures in Space was one of Keith's favorite albums.
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Klas
Joined: Feb 26, 2006
Posts: 2270
Stockholm, Sweden
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Posted on Mar 28 2006 05:00 PM
kickthe_reverb_
I mentioned mostly modern day drummers, because I feel that in the old days, the recording engineers might have tamed the energy out of some of recordings. I wasn't there so I don't know...I still like the 1st wave recordings a lot, even if some of them don't sound as intense as my favorite modern recordings.
Check this out for some nuts untamed 1st wave teenage drum pounding!! 
Johnny Barakat & The Vestells : The Wedge
— T H E ✠ S U R F I T E S
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kick_the_reverb
Joined: Feb 26, 2006
Posts: 1315
Escondido, CA
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Posted on Mar 28 2006 06:40 PM
Klas
Check this out for some nuts untamed 1st wave teenage drum pounding!!
Johnny Barakat & The Vestells : The Wedge
Hell, yeah! 
Thanks for posting this. Doesn't sound like a recording a main-stream studio engineeer of the time would have let pass, though.
Ran
— The Scimitars
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sabahawig
Joined: Mar 28, 2006
Posts: 18
Noblesville, IN
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Posted on Mar 28 2006 07:52 PM
Hey all. I really love hearing about what non-drummers pick up on when they pay attention to what the drummer is doing. Here is some insight into my appraoch to surf drumming. I wouldn't begin to suggest that my view is typical because I don't think of myself as a "surf" drummer.
No matter what style of music, the drummer's job is to establish a groove. Even fusion jazz and prog metal have a certain groove to them. This goes all the way back to tribal drumming, which is nothing but pure, hypnotic groove.
The best fills are ones that blend seemlessly with whatever groove is happening so well that they seem like a natural part of the groove. This explains the pleasant feel of frequent fills spaced every 4 bars. If the fill is right, it adds texture and flavor to the groove so it doesn't just sound like a drum machine.
As for the high-hat, I am more of a classic rock drummer by nature. This leads me to embrace the high-hat for "verse" sections and switch to ride for "chorus" sections. I also like the dynamics available by opening and closing the high-hat. By gradually opening the high-hat, you can generate a powerful build up of energy. Conversely, you can choke the high-hat abruptly by closing it and leave the song hanging on the edge foor a brief moment. These dynamics are not as available on the ride.
When I do play the ride, I usually try to find a more syncopated pattern that fits. Straight 8ths can be very powerful and kenetic, but a syncopated rythm gives the illusion of speed and adds another layer of texture to the music.
To me, the most powerfull groove that surf drumming offers up is the rolling 16th noted on the snare. This is a cjallenge to execute with smooth cosistency and power. It is also a great aerobic workout. Establishing a groove with crisp accents is almost like playing two drums at the same time. Again, it is a groove with texture.
I may have exceeded the limit for the number of times the word groove may be used in a single post.
In the words of Forest Gump, "That's all I have to say about that."
Dane
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spskins
Joined: Feb 27, 2006
Posts: 3732
tn
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Posted on Mar 28 2006 08:09 PM
kickthe_reverb_
Klas
Check this out for some nuts untamed 1st wave teenage drum pounding!!
Johnny Barakat & The Vestells : The Wedge
Hell, yeah!
Thanks for posting this. Doesn't sound like a recording a main-stream studio engineeer of the time would have let pass, though.
Ran
Yeah, that is some good teen poundin' and Ran has now hit upon one of the great mysteries and dilemmas of recording. Drum sound. I love the lo-fi drums as heard in The JB version of the Wedge. There's a fine line, but ironically, a small kit hit just right, (not too hard) by a lanky teenager, will sound huger and gnarlier in a 1963 lo-fi room mic recording situation than a close mic'd modern kit being wailed on by a bodybuilder with 15 inch biceps in a state of the art studio of 2006.
It took me a while to figure this out, and we were always torn between lo and hi fi (see Phil Dirt's many criticisms of my "demo" drum sound). I was always trying to keep one foot in 1962, if possible. This was especially difficult in situations where the engineer did not understand what I wanted. Luckily, the rest of the Pilgrims were into working with me to try and get it right. Other 90s bands were able to go all the way, but as a band we decided that we needed a little more hi fi for the 3 guitars and our songs than a mono room mic sound, even though we love that sound. I'm speaking in genaralities here, of course, there are many stops in between.
Live is a whole other story. That drummer on the Johnny Barakat recording may have sounded quite "lite" onstage surrounded by cranked Fenders. A lot of the "power" is in the recording.
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http://www.surfyindustries.com
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kick_the_reverb
Joined: Feb 26, 2006
Posts: 1315
Escondido, CA
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Posted on Mar 28 2006 09:09 PM
sabahawig
The best fills are ones that blend seemlessly with whatever groove is happening so well that they seem like a natural part of the groove. This explains the pleasant feel of frequent fills spaced every 4 bars. If the fill is right, it adds texture and flavor to the groove so it doesn't just sound like a drum machine.
Agreed, I guess that's what I was trying to say in my limited English.
sabahawig
When I do play the ride, I usually try to find a more syncopated pattern that fits. Straight 8ths can be very powerful and kenetic, but a syncopated rythm gives the illusion of speed and adds another layer of texture to the music.
I just noticed I wrote 16th on the ride, which of course should be 8th.
sabahawig
To me, the most powerfull groove that surf drumming offers up is the rolling 16th noted on the snare. This is a cjallenge to execute with smooth cosistency and power. It is also a great aerobic workout. Establishing a groove with crisp accents is almost like playing two drums at the same time. Again, it is a groove with texture.
Ah yes,
That's the thing that makes my eyes shine when it's done right.
Good to have you here Dane, thanks for your insight.
See you in July...
Ran
— The Scimitars
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kick_the_reverb
Joined: Feb 26, 2006
Posts: 1315
Escondido, CA
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Posted on Mar 28 2006 09:40 PM
spskins
one of the great mysteries and dilemmas of recording. Drum sound. I love the lo-fi drums as heard in The JB version of the Wedge. There's a fine line, but ironically, a small kit hit just right, (not too hard) by a lanky teenager, will sound huger and gnarlier in a 1963 lo-fi room mic recording situation than a close mic'd modern kit being wailed on by a bodybuilder with 15 inch biceps in a state of the art studio of 2006.
I love the sound of room mics, but the faster the song, the more guitars and the more reverb, the harder it is to get the drums to come through with just the room mics. I think most of the Pilgrims recordings are a good compromise.
One more thing, the good drummers are able to balance the sound of the kit with their own control, which makes it easier to use less close mics (or makes them sound better live with no pa). Easier said than done of course!
Ran
— The Scimitars
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tonybologna
Joined: Mar 06, 2006
Posts: 796
Oakland
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Posted on Mar 28 2006 11:03 PM
as a drummer, i love surf drums!!! you can just go nuts with the fills and the energy is incredible.
i have yet to find a surf band to play with, but still looking!
the older los straitjackets drummer blew me away. amazing speed.
the drummer for slacktone (also backing dick dale) is also awesome. so much power and speed; it's just a wall of sound.
anyways, i don't want to repeat what everyone else is saying, but i'm happy to see this thread pop up.
— Science friction burns my fingers.
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SurfBandBill
Joined: Mar 15, 2006
Posts: 1487
San Francisco
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Posted on Mar 29 2006 01:00 AM
Tony,
If you get a chance -- check out Surfin' Sunday at the Utah this Sunday. Jeremy from Pollo is a beast, and Taylor from the Lava Rats sure does a hell of a job holding his own as well.
Always around with the shameless plug,
~Bill~
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WR
Joined: Feb 27, 2006
Posts: 3832
netherlands
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Posted on Mar 29 2006 03:07 AM
SurfBandBill
Tony,
If you get a chance -- check out Surfin' Sunday at the Utah this Sunday. Jeremy from Pollo is a beast, and Taylor from the Lava Rats sure does a hell of a job holding his own as well.
Always around with the shameless plug,
~Bill~
Ah, I must say I reaslly love Jeremy'sdrumming, he is a beast and a skilled one too. but he's not really after the surf sound, in his playing nor in his sound. of course that suits pollo very well, but well.
check out this part of the Euro-tour blog of PDM, this bit was typed by Jeremy ..
" During the solid, tight Monotones' set I chatted with Michael about the sound. He said that after our sound check, some from the othe bands(?) requested an adjustment to the drum tones. "Too Heavy Rock" they said. I listened closely and sure enough he had adjusted the eq and the drums sounded VERY trad...dry. I said "Hey dude, when I get up there, put it back to Heavy Rock."
yeah, that would have been me making that request ...
WR
— Rules to live by #314:
"When in Italy, if the menu says something's grilled, don't assume it is."
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SurfBandBill
Joined: Mar 15, 2006
Posts: 1487
San Francisco
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Posted on Mar 29 2006 03:17 AM
Wannes,
I know what you're saying. I would say in general that Taylor and Jeremy are "cut from the same cloth" to some extent. Taylor does keep it a little more trad., but still infuses a lot of other sounds into his drumming.
I play in another band with a MUCH more trad. drummer, and I have to say, I like each -- a little variety is what we all need in life.
~Bill~
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WR
Joined: Feb 27, 2006
Posts: 3832
netherlands
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Posted on Mar 29 2006 03:40 AM
SurfBandBill
Wannes,
and I have to say, I like each -- a little variety is what we all need in life.
~Bill~
no argument here - I really like Jeremy's drumming a lot!
as for our drummer - same I guess - 'brought up' as a rock drummer, getting rid of old habbits  he plays a pearl export, I've been trying to get him to shell out the dough for a thin shelled small sized kit, but without succes so far. but he did go from oil-skins to double layered coated skins to single layer coated skins!
our typical converstation about drum sound is like this HIM "but that sounds like cardboard boxes" ME: "yeah, ain't it great!?"
WR
— Rules to live by #314:
"When in Italy, if the menu says something's grilled, don't assume it is."
https://www.facebook.com/The-Malbehavers-286429584796173/
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